Please Point Me In The Right Direction...

[StateDOG]

First of all, let me say that I know a slick piece of software doesn't automatically give someone some mad web designing skills.

 

I've looked longingly at the design skills that many people have and the results of their talents. I kept thinking, "I could do that if I invested the time into it." But I just would read and think, "What if?" I recently found out about a guy who does some webdesign for some businesses and organizations in our local area. I thought his prices were a little high, but looked at some of his designs and they were horrible. I think they were done with an early version of FrontPage and they have gaudy animated GIFs, big fingers pointing to email addresses and junk like that. And his hosting plans are sky high as well. I thought, "He's ripping these people off!" Then I realized if the market bears it, then why shouldn't he charge those prices?

 

Now I'm not wanting to rip people off, but I think there's $$ to be made here. It's an interest I've had that I've not been intentional about..so why not take the dive. My wife is about to have another kid this fall and she'd like to stay home from her part time job..so making some extra cash could offset that. Good plan, huh?

 

I just got Macromedia Studio MX 2004 in the mail yesterday and I'm awaiting the delievery of a book to teach it to me. I don't expect it to do the work for me. I know I have to learn my stuff before I can flaunt anything around here. But I don't think there's much competition.

 

So, what direction to I go in? I learn Dreamweaver and Fireworks and Flash and whatnot. But should I learn to create layouts with frames or with CSS? How important is it to learn PHP? I have a HTML book that I've been going through as well to make sure I can know what's going on "under the hood" and tinker with stuff. Should I draw out ideas on paper first or just jump into Dreamweaver and figure it out there?

 

I am going to invest the time and effort to learn, but I will need a few pointers along the way.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Deverill]

Sounds like you are in for some fun!

 

You have a very powerful package there in MX 2004 but as you realize it comes with a lot of learning. Don't let that stop you though - the stuff you need does not need to come all at once.

 

First, learn some basic level of HTML. You could do without it but you will do much better with it. You don't need to get awesome with it but it does help to be somewhat familiar when you start tweaking what DW produces.

 

Fireworks has a lot of features. I use only very few of them on a regular basis. Focus on the features you will use for the web sites and learn the rest later as time or demand requires.

 

PHP gives you a lot of ability but at first just learn about PHP includes (because they are powerful) and check out a few scripts for anything you may want to implement and go from there. Definitely learn it but don't put web design on hold because it's a nice added tool, not the base skill.

 

I would stay away from frames because of search engine reasons. CSS is definitely the way things are going and anyone with a fairly modern browser can see it well. The really old browsers don't handle CSS well but how many folks have Netscape 4 and does it bother you if they don't see your site like you intended? If it's not a business and there's only 3% then who cares... if it is a business then maybe 1% of the "left behinds" might affect your decision.

 

If you are doing more than 3 pages you should probably have a great idea of how you are going to organize your pages. If you can do that in your head then great (you're better than I am at that if you can) but if you need to write it down then do that. Don't start designing until you have an idea of what the page will look like and how it fits into the others. Then you won't have a crazy navigation system.

 

Best wishes!

[bellringr]

I also agree about staying away from frames. Not only for the search engines, but people can't link to various pages in your site when it's in frames, and IMO they are a pain to update. We still have a few old Frontpage sites here at work in frames and I cannot wait til we put them in templates.

 

Speaking of templates, they are VERY easy in Dreamweaver, and if you have a larger site, you will love using them.

 

I think that having a basic knowledge of HTML is a MUST. Even in Dreamweaver, there will be times when a line or paragraph just won't do what you want, and you'll need to be able to look in the code to find out what is wrong. I don't think you can be an effective web designer without understanding what is going on in the background. You don't have to be an expert, but knowing how to hand code basic tables, pictures, and links will make your life easier in the long run when you need to tweak the code.

 

Good luck with your learning!!

[StateDOG]

Thanks so much for your replies. Great advice.

 

But I need to correct something...I said FRAMES when I meant to say TABLES. I've heard that it's becoming more and more common to layout pages using CSS rather than w/ tables & cells. What are you thoughts on this? I'm still new enough at it that I can focus learning page layout from the CSS standpoint more so than tables/cells.

 

Thanks.

[TCH-Rob]

Jumping on the band wagon here. I like to story board before I begin, find what works for you. learn enough HTML to be able to edit your code in notepad or cPanels file manager if need be, PHP is a great idea if you can and CSS for sure. Most of us arent a fan of frames and tend to stay away from them, design from a users perspective with SEO in mind and you should be just fine.

 

One more thing, ask us many questions. We need something to do.

 

 

Now that the change was defined, I use tables often so I cant say one way or another. I will let someone better versed in CSS to answer that.

Edited April 22, 2004 by TCH-Rob

[TCH-Bruce]

I still haven't got the hang of doing tableless pages. The browsers differ when it comes to rendering CSS. So I will stick with tables with CSS for font control and some page layout for the time being.

[TCH-Don]

I have tried so many tableless css designs

and the bottom line for me is, I get a lot of visitors using netscape 4.x

and the tableless designs do not work in the older browsers, so I can't afford to use them yet.

And tables are quicker to set up as long as you do not hard code dimensions and use percentages for the width.

 

But the tableless designs are worth trying and you need to decide how many of your visitors are using the older browsers.

[TangentIdea]

I've been designing rather seriously for about 2 and a half years now. Whenever I lay out a page, I think about the person with the oldest computer and the slowest internet connection -- cuz that was pretty much where I was three years ago. I always test my sites on the oldest computer I have around, using Netscape 4 on dialup. Especially when you're doing something for a business, you have to be absolutely certain that you don't leave anyone behind.

 

Look through some of Jakob Neilson's (a well-respected usability expert) reports at http://www.alertbox.com/ . He has many good suggestions on making sites compatible, not only with computers, but with people. Many sites suffer from poor design, in text content, navigation, etc.

 

I think that the hardest thing for new designers to grasp is that your website will inevitably look different on every other computer. It's a sad reality of web design. You could have all the fonts, colors, and photos laid out exactly the way you want it on your computer, just to have that orange look like horse puke on someone else's computer, or have the layout ruined by a senior with the highest font setting, etc etc etc. So go simple, and use old technology. I use mostly HTML, with an ocassional drop of JavaScript. I use only JPEG and GIF images. On the one hand, it doesn't have the "oh wow, isn't that cool" effect, but I know that it will work reliably on almost every computer on the internet.

 

So have fun -- there's good money to be had in the web design business. You've got the right idea already, that more is not always better. Don't get too carried away with the power of DreamWeaver . It is always better to err on the side of too simple than on the side of too snazzy. A website is a tool for people to find information, it is not an action movie.

 

-Ryan

 

PS: Despite having said all that, I apologize for the rather sorry state that my website is in at the moment. I've been too busy with school and other jobs to do much with it right now. Check out http://www.chalc.org/, http://www.paradisemc.org, or http://www.countrylanepoultry.com/ -- they're in much better condition.

[Deverill]

Look through some of Jakob Neilson's (a well-respected usability expert) reports at http://www.alertbox.com/ . He has many good suggestions on making sites compatible, not only with computers, but with people. Many sites suffer from poor design, in text content, navigation, etc.

Keep in mind, though, that "poor design" is often in the eyes of the beholder. Nielson's useit.com might be great for a screen reader for the visually impaired but for me trying to find a specific category or piece of info it stinks. I certainly would not go there on a regular basis to find things, but that's my point of view and I know others disagree.

 

There is the accessibility issue but also usability and that differs based on your audience, web site purpose, etc. A site about the latest graphics techniques for high end video games probably doesn't have to do a lot to accomodate the visually impaired because it just doesn't work that way. It's like Columbia House adding a section of their web page for the deaf - they sell CDs so the audience is very likely to be hearing people.

 

CSS-P (Positional) is not as mature as I'd like it to be. I am using the built in CSS layout that Dreamweaver MX 2004 has to play with it but on the sites I do completely myself, until I get the hang of it, I'll probably use CSS for fonts, etc and tables for layout.

[TangentIdea]

Look through some of Jakob Neilson's (a well-respected usability expert) reports at http://www.alertbox.com/ .  He has many good suggestions on making sites compatible, not only with computers, but with people.  Many sites suffer from poor design, in text content, navigation, etc.

Keep in mind, though, that "poor design" is often in the eyes of the beholder. Nielson's useit.com might be great for a screen reader for the visually impaired but for me trying to find a specific category or piece of info it stinks. I certainly would not go there on a regular basis to find things, but that's my point of view and I know others disagree.

Jakob Neilson's reports are based on actual testing of random users sitting at a computer, trying to use a particular piece of software, a web site, what have you, so it's not his opinion. And yeah, you're right -- depending on your audience, your site will have to be designed differently.

 

-Ryan

[wigoweb]

I can agree with much of the above.

 

Think about web site design as opposed to web page design. It is similar to the difference between writing a letter or summary and crafting a short story. Page sixteen of your web site should look like it is part of the same web site as page three. Links of some kind should help you move from section to section no matter where you are in the site. Creating useful navigation takes some practice. You don't need a link to every page from every page which is what FrontPage sometimes try to do for you. This might be okay with a five page web site, but obviously not with a two-hundred page web site.

 

Story boarding, working ahead of time on paper, will save you many hours of tweaking and repairing after the fact.

 

In Dreamweaver, learn to use templates and study the find and replace. If you have done several similar pages and discover some basic code that needs to be changed in all of those pages, the find and replace can be a real time saver as it will find every instance on every page of your site whether you have the page open or not. Of course, this means you might change something you didn't mean to change, so use this tool with care.

 

Try the tutorials at Macromedia. Look at Macromedia University. For $100 (I think) you can have access to many courses.

 

Here is a link to get you started with CSS:

 

Dave on Standards - The Nemesis Project

 

Look up some info on Eric Myer, a real CSS guru.

 

Try to find some online classes:

 

International Webmasters Guild

 

I often advise that web sites are about information, not animation. Just because you can do something is not a good reason to do it.

 

And finally, use the spellchecker and have someone else proof your work.

 

A professional web site that represents someone's business, and therefore the livelihood and income for a family, should not have grammatical errors and/or misspellings. Part of what my clients pay me for is the ability to craft a sentence. That sentence needs to be correct in all aspects.

[TangentIdea]

A professional web site that represents someone's business, and therefore the livelihood and income for a family, should not have grammatical errors and/or misspellings. Part of what my clients pay me for is the ability to craft a sentence. That sentence needs to be correct in all aspects.

There's an excellent book on the subject on webwriting that I highly recommend, Writing for the Web (I read the Geek's edition). You can get it on Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

 

Composing for the internet is a much different process and has a much different goal than, say, writing for a book. You have as concise as possible, and do everything in your power to hold the user's attention, and that book explains much of that.

 

-Ryan

[natimage]

Just a couple things I would advise...based OMHO...

 

I would not mess with DW templates...php includes can do the same thing for you but better. There are a couple of drawbacks to doing it the php way...but I think the advantages outway the drawbacks by far.

 

Definitely have a grasp on some html...no WSYIWYG program out there is going to right the cleanest html. And many times, the program just doesn't understand what you are trying to do. I taught myself html and wouldn't trade that small skill for anything.

 

CSS vs TABLES...I'm still up in the air on this one. I really wanted to learn how to do it the css way, but have had many troubles along the way. I built the first page of one site using a 3-column css layout and was successful. I tried to do the first page of another site using the same base code and couldn't get it to work for the life of me. SO...I guess I would say to definitely learn the css as you go along, because it's a great asset. However, tables have their place in the scheme of things. Just make sure you understand how to use nested tables in a grand way. It'll make your life a lot easier once you are working on a pretty sophisticated layout idea!

 

Just my 2 cents. Hope you have fun with Macromedia!!!!