Lianna Posted January 4, 2004 Posted January 4, 2004 So yesterday morning (Jan. 3) I wake up and it's 61 degreesF. By 2 pm, it's 73 degreesF. By 5 pm, it's 48 degreesF. Now today, 5pm, it's 37 degreesF. First, in Missouri, USA, Jan. 3 is NOT supposed to be 73 degrees. Second, in Missouri USA, a 25 degree drop in temp in 3 hours in the middle of the day IS fairly normal. Third, I WANT SNOW!!!!! It's time to build a snowman. It's winter for heaven's sake and it should act like it! Quote
KevinW Posted January 4, 2004 Posted January 4, 2004 Here in Florida, we celebrated New Year's Eve out on the patio with a bar-b-que. Today (Sunday) it was 84, and guess what? our A/C unit went on the blink!! Even it knows that January is not the time of yeart to be running the A/C! :-) kw Quote
Virtual Imager Posted January 4, 2004 Posted January 4, 2004 Hi Lianna... I lived in Missouri for a couple of years back in the 70's. I remember calling the city (Columbia) one January 4th to complain that the snow was piling up and to ask if they were going to plow the streets. I was told that they didn't have any plows because "It doesn't snow here." I think Missouri considers itself a Southern State (didn't they fight on the side of the Confederates in the Civil War???). I will say, however, that when I mentioned that I was 9 months pregnant and concerned about getting to the hospital, they were very nice and even offered to send someone to get me. It turned out that I didn't have to go till the next day and it wasn't a problem (my son turns 30 tomorrow and I'm freaking out, but that's another issue). Bringing the baby home a few days later (yes, in the olden days we stayed in the hospital for days and days) was a huge problem though. We got stuck in very deep snow and the baby and I ended up in some nice stranger's house while the stranger and my husband dug the car out). Missouri Snow and I don't mix... but I do the miss the ice storms. They were the most beautiful things in nature there. I live in Arizona now... we too celebrated the New Year with a barbecue, but on New Year's Day. And now today we have freeze alerts for this afternoon and evening. Don't know what's going on. It's the desert for heaven's sake... and it should act like it by being sunny and hot! Quote
Head Guru Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Ok Lianna! Thanks to you, I have to go shovel my driveway! Quote
KevinW Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 To: Virtual Imager --- did you live near or in Columbia? I was born in Belleville, but was raised in Columbia. That's where my parents and grandparents all lived. -kw Quote
Lianna Posted January 5, 2004 Author Posted January 5, 2004 Virtual Imager, I think that whoever said it doesn't snow in Missouri had not been here that long! I've been here since 73 and not one year has gone by without snow. Blizzard of '79 left my house with snow to the door's peep-hole. Now, that was fun, but I was only a kid. The ice storms, although treacherous, are quite beautiful. But we've not had snow once this year. Well it tried and spit flurries one day in December, but it melted no sooner than it hit the ground. By this time last year, we'd had well over 15 inches of snow throughout. I just miss it that's all. High time winter did it's job! HG - sorry dude, problem solved: move to MO! Quote
boxturt Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 60's and raining here in Connecticut. Supposed to be under a couple feet of snow by now. But temps will drop about 40 degrees overnight and snow scheduled for tomorrow. Blea. Quote
TCH-Rick Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 My first teaching job was in Southwest Missouri (Monett). I grew up in Arkansas where school was cancelled if there was just more than a 50% chance of snow. A couple of inches would cause everything to shut down. I remember waking up one morning and seeing 2 or 3 inches of snow on the ground and thinking that we would have the day off. I was very disappointed when I turned on the radio to hear that classes would meet as usual and that we wouldn't even be using the dealyed snow schedule. Quote
Deverill Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 I just don't understand what you folks are talking about. Is it a new invention or something. Where I live we have never seen this stuff called snow (except the illegal kind), an ice storm is what happens at a picnic after you put ice down a friend's back and a blizzard is a desert treat from Dairy Queen. In fact, it's never been below 41 degrees Farenheit here either. But then again, I live in Key West, Florida. I knew there was a reason I came here! I grew up in Louisville, KY and I certainly know what all that stuff is - I just haven't seen any in over 10 years and don't miss it! I can see snow on my windows desktop if I want and that is all it is ever good for - looking at! I guess you don't have hurricanes in Missouri, eh? Quote
TCH-Don Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 I am in the center of Michigan and its heavier south of me so far, so HG, I think you may get it worse then me. But I fired up the snow blower before I left for work, so I guess I am ready. I just hope I make it home Quote
Head Guru Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Snow Blower my A#@@! They really need to call it.. A machine that will only start on the 419th pull of the starter cord. Stalls when it goes out of the garage and encounters more than 2" of snow, and blows more smoke than a Mack Truck. Please let the sun come out on Monday. Quote
Lianna Posted January 5, 2004 Author Posted January 5, 2004 A machine that will only start on the 419th pull of the starter cord. Stalls when it goes out of the garage and encounters more than 2" of snow, and blows more smoke than a Mack Truck. No, no, HG. That's a FORD! Quote
TCH-Dick Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 It's been in the 70's the past few days here, upper 20's at night, mid 70's in the day time........Welcome to west texas!!! Quote
Head Guru Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Ok bash ford thread. FORD = Found on Roadside DEAD Quote
SEO Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Well in Western New York it has been quite unusual as well. First time in 15 years that we did not have a white Christmas and last week we hit 63 degrees! That is... well just unheard of. Temperatures dropped today and presently we have about 3 inches on the ground with more coming. I say bring it on! I am in total agreement with Lady Li, Winter means white, deep snow! I have lived many places around this country: Colorado Springs, Denver, Boulder, San Francisco, Walnut Creek (CA), Los Angeles, Westport (CT), Albuquerque (NM), Dallas, Houston, Nacogdoches (TX), Chicago and presently in the Finger Lakes of Western New York. Sorry, Jim but nothing beats a location that offers four 'real' seasons. Each one offering different visuals and smells that is unique and beautiful. My favorite: well that would be plowing very deep snow (no snow blower here, I use a diesel tractor with a rear blade) while great big flakes continue to fall. Well no maybe it is the awesome colors and smells that the northeast falls give us. Or could it be the first smells of spring when all the trees decide to leave out? And then of course there is that big plunge into beautiful (and warm) Keuka Lake during the summer. Heck I don't know... I like them all! But for now.... SNOW! Quote
TCH-Don Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Bill, its time to get a snow blower with electric start Thumbs Up my heart can't take all that pulling Yuck! two years ago, I upgraded to a 5 hp two stage w/electric start. I have a 3/4 mile dirt road to clear, and now it only takes two hours instead of three. But after the road is clear, I have to admit it is a nice change, and the brisk air seems to clear the head. Quote
SEO Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Bill, its time to get a snow blower with electric start Thumbs Up I have a 3/4 mile dirt road to clear, and now it only takes two hours instead of three. Turtle, it's time to get a tractor... how about a little Farmall Cub with a front blade? Quote
ejh Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Here in Omaha we got snowed on good... prolly six or seven inches. The sad part, it came a day early!!! If it came like 20 or 24 hours later I wouldn't be getting ready for school tomorrow! Oh well... We've already had one snow day (which is VERY low for us) we'll get another two sometime. Maybe it'll snow through the night? Quote
Virtual Imager Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Kevin... Yes... I lived in Columbia from '72 to '75. My husband was getting his PhD at the university there.... Mizzoo-RAH! Tigers! I had a short-lived job teaching pre-school but got fired when I told the owner's child that she had to listen to me just like the other kids. Imagine that??? So I ended up cocktail waitressing at the Tiger Club out on Loop Something-or-other. Did you know it? Ugh! Not exactly the place one works to put one's husband through school. We were starving! It was a rough three years. But I did like those ice storms... turned the whole city into an amazing ice sculpture. Too bad I hadn't found my creative outlet back then... I'd have some amazing images if I had only taken some photos. It's supposed to go down into the mid-twenties here tonight (I live in Paradise Valley... a little town between Scottsdale and Phoenix, AZ)... cold enough for an ice storm, but it's probably not going to happen. Quote
TCH-Rob Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 I am in Phoenix, Virtual I don't think is too far from me. I have not seen snow since '88. Well I have seen it but haven't come in contact with it. What I like about it here is that the winters are mild yet if I want snow I can have it in a short drive up the road. The bad part, summers. And I don't want to hear all the folks back east tell me "But it's a dry heat". I lived in Louisiana and I know all about what you have to "endure". Give yourself a few summers here, maybe my 14 here are getting to me, and you will understand. By the way, whats a snowblower? Quote
Lianna Posted January 5, 2004 Author Posted January 5, 2004 I won't repeat my fav Ford bash, y'all know the one. Yup, the Rebuilt Dodge one. Anywho, somebody keeps hogging all the snow and it's finally cold enough here to have some. But the skies are clearing and again, no snowman. I have a box sitting by the front door with all the trimmings (scarf, mittens, coal, huge buttons) just waiting with hopes. Rob, a snowblower snow·blow·er or snow blower n. A machine that clears snow from a surface by collecting a swath of snow and projecting it forcefully through a chute. Also called snow thrower. In other words a Tim Allen wannabe AAARRRRaaaarrrrr. I'd love to see Jesse James and Monster Garage make a snow blower out of a Orange County Chopper. Paulie meets Jesse...........FUN. Quote
Head Guru Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily Ford = F%$@ over rebuilt dodge Quote
TCH-Dick Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 nah....fix on race day I'd rather push a chevy than drive a ford Quote
Virtual Imager Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 But have you driven a Ford lately? Yuck! Hey Rob... if you want to see snow, come on over to my house.... there should be some on the Superstitions tomorrow. I've been trippin' on that whole ice-storm-in-the-desert concept... can you imagine an ice-encrusted Saguaro? As for summers... they ARE brutal. I've been here since '75. I do manage to get away every summer for a few weeks though. You have to. Especially when the hundred degree plus heat lasts through the end of October like it did this year. Were you here the day it hit 122 and they had to close the airport? That was a first for me! I think it was within the last 14 years, but it may have been longer ago than that. Seems the specs for the planes only go up to 120 degrees so nobody knew if they could take off in that heat. Scary, huh? Quote
TCH-Rob Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Virtual, I was here, they were parking the planes on 4X8's of plywood because they were sinking into the tarmac. What a great day that was. Quote
TCH-Thomas Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Stockholm, Sweden weather: 26.6 degree Fahrenheit and SNOW Quote
Deverill Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Sorry, Jim but nothing beats a location that offers four 'real' seasons. We have four seasons here, Scott... Rainy, Windy, T-shirt, long-sleeve/jacket Quote
Boojum Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Weather History: In 1975 (the last winter I spent in Vermont), I believe the temperature in Key West, Florida, was 20 degrees Fahrenheit. As for this current anomalous weather, I think we're getting a foretaste of the much-discussed global warming. Quote
TCH-Don Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 LOL global warming! When I found out that it meant a rise of about .1 degress every ten years, I was very dissapointed <_< I took me an extra half hour to get home last night, had to stop and scrape the windows every 5 miles, washer fluid froze up Mad!!! But we lucked out, only 4-5 inches, not enough to bother with, just run over it a few times Quote
TCH-Thomas Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 washer fluid froze up Dont you have that alcoholthing to mix it with? -Thomas, who doesnt even have a drivers license Quote
TCH-Don Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 LOL, I checked today, the fluid was empty Quote
Virtual Imager Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 LOL global warming!When I found out that it meant a rise of about .1 degress every ten years, I was very dissapointed Don't be disappointed... the effects are devastating. This article from The National Resource Defense Council (http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/fcons.asp) highlights some of the consequences and how they are already affecting us: Scientists say that unless global warming emissions are reduced, average U.S. temperatures could rise another 3 to 9 degrees by the end of the century -- with far-reaching effects. Sea levels will rise, flooding coastal areas. Heat waves will be more frequent and more intense. Droughts and wildfires will occur more often. Disease-carrying mosquitos will expand their range. And species will be pushed to extinction. As this page shows, many of these changes have already begun. CLIMATE PATTERN CHANGES Consequence: warmer temperatures Average temperatures will rise, as will the frequency of heat waves. Warning signs today: Most of the United States has already warmed, in some areas by as much as 4 degrees Fahrenheit. In fact, no state in the lower 48 states experienced below average temperatures in 2002. The last three five-year periods are the three warmest on record. Many places in North America had their hottest seasons or days on record in the late 1990s. Since 1980, the earth has experienced 19 of its 20 hottest years on record, with 1998 the hottest and 2002 and 2003 coming in second and third. Consequence: drought and wildfire Warmer temperatures could also increase the probability of drought. Greater evaporation, particularly during summer and fall, could exacerbate drought conditions and increase the risk of wildfires. Warning signs today: Greater evaporation as a result of global warming could increase the risk of wildfires. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 1999-2002 national drought was one of the three most extensive droughts in the last 40 years. In 2002, the Western United States experienced its second worst wildfire season in the last 50 years; more than 7 million acres burned. Colorado, Arizona, and Oregon had their worst seasons. The period from April through June of 1998 was the driest three-month period in 104 years in Florida, Texas, and Louisiana. Dry conditions produced the worst wildfires in 50 years in Florida in 1998. April through July of 1999 was the driest four-month stretch in 105 years of record-keeping in New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, and Rhode Island. Montana, Colorado, and Kansas experienced severe dust storms in 2002, a product of dry conditions. September 2001 to February 2002 was the second driest six-month period on record for the Northeast. Consequence: more intense rainstorms Warmer temperatures increase the energy of the climatic system and lead to more intense rainfall at some times and in some areas. Warning signs today: National annual precipitation has increased between 5 and 10 percent since the early 20th century, largely the result of heavy downpours in some areas. Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts each got more than double their normal monthly rainfall in June 1998. Severe flooding in the Texas, Montana, and North Dakota during the summer of 2002 caused hundreds of millions of dollars in damage. HEALTH EFFECTS More frequent and more intensive heat waves could result in more heat-related deaths. Photo: Gary Braasch, Chicago, July 1995. See the World View of Global Warming website for more Gary Braasch photos illustrating the consequences of the changing climate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Consequence: deadly heat waves and the spread of disease More frequent and more intensive heat waves could result in more heat-related deaths. These conditions could also aggravate local air quality problems, already afflicting more than 80 million Americans. Global warming is expected to increase the potential geographic range and virulence of tropical diseases as well. Warning signs today: In 2003, extreme heat waves caused more than 20,000 deaths in Europe and more than 1500 deaths in India. More than 250 people died as a result of an intense heat wave that gripped most of the eastern two-thirds of the United States in 1999. Disease-carrying mosquitoes are spreading as climate shifts allow them to survive in formerly inhospitable areas. Mosquitoes that can carry dengue fever viruses were previously limited to elevations of 3,300 feet but recently appeared at 7,200 feet in the Andes Mountains of Colombia. Malaria has been detected in new higher-elevation areas in Indonesia. WARMING WATER Consequence: melting glaciers, early ice thaw Rising global temperatures will speed the melting of glaciers and ice caps, and cause early ice thaw on rivers and lakes. Warning signs today: At the current rate of retreat, all of the glaciers in Glacier National Park will be gone by 2070. After existing for many millennia, the northern section of the Larsen B ice shelf in Antarctica -- a section larger than the state of Rhode Island -- collapsed between January and March 2002, disintegrating at a rate that astonished scientists. Since 1995 the ice shelf's area has shrunk by 40 percent. According to NASA, the polar ice cap is now melting at the alarming rate of nine percent per decade. Arctic ice thickness has decreased 40 percent since the 1960s. In 82 years of record-keeping, four of the five earliest thaws on Alaska's Tanana River were in the 1990s. The satellite photo at far left shows the Larson B ice shelf on Jan. 31, 2002. Ice appears as solid white. Moving to the right, in photos taken Feb. 17 and Feb. 23, the ice begins to disintegrate. In the photos at far right, taken Mar. 5 and Mar 7, note water (blue) where solid ice had been, and that a portion of the shelf is drifting away. Photos: National Aeronautics and Space Administration -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Consequence: sea-level rise Current rates of sea-level rise are expected to increase as a result both of thermal expansion of the oceans and of partial melting of mountain glaciers and the Antarctic and Greenland ice caps. Consequences include loss of coastal wetlands and barrier islands, and a greater risk of flooding in coastal communities. Low-lying areas, such as the coastal region along the Gulf of Mexico and estuaries like the Chesapeake Bay, are especially vulnerable. Warning signs today: The current pace of sea-level rise is three times the historical rate and appears to be accelerating. Global sea level has already risen by four to eight inches in the past century. Scientists' best estimate is that sea level will rise by an additional 19 inches by 2100, and perhaps by as much as 37 inches. ECOSYSTEM DISRUPTION Warmer temperatures may cause some ecosystems, including alpine meadows in the Rocky Mountains, to disappear. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Consequence: ecosystem shifts and species die-off The increase in global temperatures is expected to disrupt ecosystems and result in loss of species diversity, as some species that cannot adapt die off. Some ecosystems, including alpine meadows in the Rocky Mountains, as well as tropical montane and mangrove forests, are likely to disappear because new warmer local climates or coastal sea level rise will not support them. Warning signs today: A recent study published in the prestigious journal Nature found that at least 279 species of plants and animals are already responding to global warming. Species' geographic ranges have shifted toward the poles at an average rate of 4 miles per decade and their spring events have shifted earlier by an average of 2 days per decade. In Washington's Olympic Mountains, sub-alpine forest has invaded higher elevation alpine meadows. In Bermuda and other places, mangrove forests are being lost. In areas of California, shoreline sea life is shifting northward, probably in response to warmer ocean and air temperatures. Over the past 25 years, some penguin populations have shrunk by 33 percent in parts of Antarctica, due to declines in winter sea-ice habitat. The answer? Also from NRDC (http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/action.asp): How to fight it? Acknowledging a problem, they say, is the first step toward solving it. We know we have a problem, and we know what's causing it -- a thickening layer of pollution, mostly carbon dioxide from power plants and automobiles, that traps heat in the atmosphere. We also know how to solve it: cleaner cars and cleaner electricity. These are not pie-in-the-sky ideas. Technologies exist today to make cars that run cleaner and burn less gas, generate electricity from wind and sun, modernize power plants, and build refrigerators, air conditioners and whole buildings that use less power. But these solutions won't be used widely enough to stop the rising temperatures until our business leaders change the way they operate and our elected leaders demand it. That's my virtual 2 cents (didn't keyboards used to have a cents sign???) from my virtual soapbox for today... sorry for such a long post... some things really are important. Quote
Guest schussat Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 I'm late to the weather conversation, but I have to weigh in: We traveled from Tucson to northern Utah and northern Colorado to visit my parents and my wife's parents, respectively. It was cold, but not particularly snowy, until the day after Christmas, when we dashed from Ft. Collins to Ogden along I-80 along the northern edge of a storm that I thought would strand us in Rock Springs (the drive through southern Wyoming can be really nasty: Wind-driven snow obscures the road very quickly, and in our case we had frozen wiper blades and five inches of icy rime on the headlights ... yow). The same storm system dumped about four feet of snow on us over the next three or four days in Utah -- It was a white, white Christmas for us (some of the lightest, fluffiest Utah Powder [tm] I've ever seen, though it still breaks your back when you have to shovel enough of it), and I have to say I'm a little sad to come back to the desert again. -Alan Quote
Nick_ Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Well..it was about 65 degrees here on christmas Today it's rainy and nasty. I have to go up north to see snow (in Georgia.) Quote
TCH-Don Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Virtual Imager you are very right to be concerned. While I spoke of global surface tempature, which has increased by almost a full dregree in the last 60 years, that is a lot, and it is is a very serious topic. You may be interested in a site *http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/global_warming/page.cfm?pageID=524 It may seem that any one individual can not make a difference, but you can. 20 years ago I gave up automatic transmissions to save gas, turns out I am helping the enviroment a little and saving gas and money. It may not seem like that can make much difference, but consider going from 20 mpg to 35-45 mpg for 20 years. thats a lot of gas, and if more people did it think how that would help! Oh yea, I drive a 5 speed FORD! wagon that gets 45 mpg Thumbs Up Quote
Lianna Posted January 5, 2004 Author Posted January 5, 2004 Who-da-thunk-it??? My little post, complaining of no snow, would provide 3 pages of entertainment, growth and sharing! Hey, just goes to show that 'weather' ISN'T small talk after all. Quote
TCH-Thomas Posted January 5, 2004 Posted January 5, 2004 Blows the swedish snow over to Lianna. -Thomas, takes a deeeeeeep breath... Quote
Boojum Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 Virtual Imager: Thank you. It is a common human failing to disbelieve or disregard that which occurs too slowly for us to perceive, and occasionally we need to review the facts if we are to understand what's really happening--and your review was right on target. Two additional points: 1) Global warming does not necessarily manifest in warmer weather; its effects can be quite complex and sometimes paradoxical. For example: The United Kingdom, whose climate has remained artificially warm for its latitude thanks to its placement vis a vis the jet stream, is actually expected to become colder as this century progresses. 2) For an immediate wake-up call on the overall warming issue, examine the records of recent melting of both Antarctic ice caps and glaciers around the world. I hate to say it, but global warming is. It's here, it's now, and it's going to be a while before we can reverse it, so we'd all do well, I think, to take it into account and do everything in our power to help reduce greenhouse emissions and persuade our governments to do the same. (Oh, and Virtual Imager: Come check out my site [www.squort.com]. I think you may find it interesting, even though I haven't posted my global warming page so far. ) Quote
Deverill Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 Must not have been Key West, Florida. Here's one link h**p://www.weathertoday.net/weatherfacts/coldest_temps_desc.php that shows the extremes recorded as 41-95. Miami has been down to 30 but we are surrounded by the water and the gulf stream is near. In the winter they are having summer in the southern hemisphere and all that warm water comes right by here. The opposite is true in the summer so we don't get the extremes of the concrete jungle 150 miles north of here. Being on a 2 mile by 4 mile island in the middle of the ocean has it's advantages... and disadvantages. While everyone is shovelling snow remember this - we are supposed to be having radical global warming that will melt the polar icecaps ... yeah, right! Quote
Virtual Imager Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 Hey Boojum... cool site. You're preaching to the choir here. But maybe we can get a few others to take a peek. I just took a quick look, but will explore it more fully tonight. Also looking forward to the completion of some of the pages you have planned. Will you have a page re over-population? Personally I think that's the worst problem facing the planet and the root of most other problems. What's Tagalog??? Quote
Boojum Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 Not "supposed to be," Jim. Are. Don't you read or watch the news? Some of Antarctica's largest ice shelves (such as the Waddell shelf) have been melting and disintegrating into the sea. As far as shoveling snow, it may be quite a while before that changes, but a change of a few degrees can (and currently does) mean the loss of glaciation, radical intensifications of weather patterns and rising sea levels. Oh, and Jim: When the sea level starts rising in earnest, a low-lying two-by-four-mile island in the middle of the ocean is not a place I'd like to be. (In fact, it rather reminds me of a nightmare I recently had. I was riding through a violent and drenching storm in a car driven by my mother [meaning the dream was presumably set in Maui], and she set out along a causeway that at first appeared to cross a smallish lagoon. Only as we went on, the lagoon grew and grew, and soon it was the ocean. And as the water expanded on all horizons, the causeway grew gradually narrower and lower. Soon, the road began to dip into puddles of seawater, and as we went those puddles grew ... and grew. Then we realized--too late, for we could no longer turn back--that the storm was driving the ocean up over the road, or submerging the road; either way, it meant the same. Then the waves began to sweep over the causeway, and the car began to swerve and float and regain the ground and lose it again. And every second, the tempest blew stronger. And then I looked to my right, and saw the wave--a vast and towering mountain of ocean--looming and crashing over us. And then, of course, I awoke.) Quote
Boojum Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 Virtual Imager: Thank you for the compliment on my site. I have not yet written anything on overpopulation, although it is certainly a significant source of humanity's troubles, but it will be among the topics discussed in my "Common Sense on ..." series. Of course, overpopulation would be much less of a problem if we could somehow realize that we are all one species and are in this together for better or for worse. Tagalog is the primary language of the Philippines. Unfortunately, the Filipina who said she was going to provide a translation has since gotten bogged down in other projects and may not be able to proceed for some time. As for getting others to take a peek at the site, I would very much like it, but I am also aware that most people like to read things that they already agree with, so I hold out little hope of winning over the hard-core reactionary element. My hope is to appeal to the great majority out there that has not yet committed to an ideology and is open to reason. Quote
Virtual Imager Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 So, Boojum, who do you like in the Democratic primary? (Sorry Lianna... we seem to have gotten off topic! It's still cold here in Arizona though...) Quote
Deverill Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 Don't you read or watch the news? Please remember that "the news" is not always the same as the truth. That being said, there are some facts that are causing people concern. The shrinking ice shelves and slightly-yet-increasing temps have many upset. My stand on the issues is this: We are talking about a planet that scientists say have been here perhaps billions of years. The emissions from one volcano is more vast than what all our industrial countries produce and they've been erupting for those same billions of years. The sun varies in intensity and emissions on a cyclical schedule. Any ham radio operator knows the sunspots cycle every 11 years and it is that which affects the ozone layer. My point is that we are so insignificant in the whole picture that we can not possibly get a statistical baseline on these things. Yes, it's warmer by 1 degree but that's only records going back a second in the time of the earth. We are taking a very limited and narrow set of statistics and projecting them to a long term catastrophic end without knowing all of the influences on the situation such as the "accepted fact" that the earth has been decimated several times by ice ages, the influence of a diety, the self-healing ability of the planet and other bigger-than-us factors. I simply can't get upset over things that may not need worrying about and that I can't do much about anyway. Sorry. I am not ignorant of the situations, nor do I view my point of view as superior to yours or others, just different. I'm sorry if my joking comment about the snow offended anyone - it was not meant to but rather is just a reflection of my own take on the situation. Quote
hindixp Posted January 6, 2004 Posted January 6, 2004 Just for KIDs Easiest Way to Remember the Spelling of what everyone is talking about it WE AT HER Means "Weather" See ya, manu Quote
Lianna Posted January 7, 2004 Author Posted January 7, 2004 (Sorry Lianna... we seem to have gotten off topic! It's still cold here in Arizona though...) Hey, no problem at all...that's why they call this the Open Discussion forum. Just an update...well, it snowed yesterday. All day it snowed. And into the evening it snowed. And what did amount to? Squat!!! That's right, falling, blowing beautiful snow and not more than a dusting to show for it. No snow angels, no snowmen, no snow-days out of school. Now it's just flat COLD (14 as I write). Thanks for the effort, Thomas! But I think it's going to take a little more than that to get enough here. Quote
TCH-Don Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 Sorry Lianna, we are getting your snow Tuesday night : Windy early. Snow showers will become more widely scattered by late night. Wind chills approaching -15F. Low 2F. Winds W at 20 to 30 mph. Chance of snow 50%. Wednesday : Scattered flurries and snow showers. Cold. Wind chills approaching -15F. High 18F. Winds W at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of snow 30% Quote
cloudrm Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 we got some of it here in Seattle today too . . . you can have some. Thumbs Up Quote
Deverill Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 Lianna, I'll have to find you a Florida snowman and send it to you. It's a little base with a corncob pipe, sunglasses, a top hat and eyes and a carrot nose scattered in a puddle of water. Quote
Boojum Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 Jim: Try to understand: Global warming is indeed a concern of mine--and I think a well-founded one--and I therefore do tend to take offense when I mention it and someone appears to laugh me off. I take it that was not your intent, so I will try not to impute such a motive to you, but you should also be aware that there are large and powerful corporate interests, staunchly supported and abetted by the current administration in Washington, that have no compunctions about spending hundreds of millions of dollars per year sponsoring pseudo-science designed solely to raise false doubts about global warming--a phenomenon accepted today even by most of the same scientists who were formerly inclined to pooh-pooh it--and so maintain the climate of complacent anti-alarmism that allows them to keep right on pumping carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere at ever-increasing rates. I'm not sure how thoroughly you read Virtual Imager's first post, but you must have noted that she cited a number of facts regarding the clear and present danger presented by this climatic phenomenon, not one of which is in any way refuted or even meaningfully repudiated by the arguments you present. As for those arguments: The shrinking ice shelves and slightly-yet-increasing temps have many upset.Jim, the entire Waddell ice shelf--a mass of ice hundreds of feet thick and hundreds of miles in extent--not long ago dissolved into the ocean. This is not shrinkage; this is utter disappearance. And it is absolutely unprecedented in the span of the human species' existence. Observed weather science has of course only existed, as you say, for a relatively few years, but science can and does study evidence of events proceeding hundreds of millions and even billions of years into the past--and nowhere in history or examined prehistory is there any indication of any comparable event. It is true that comparable melt-offs may have occurred during past pole-shifting events, but they have been compensated for by the simultaneous formation of new ice shelves. The emissions from one volcano is more vast than what all our industrial countries produce and they've been erupting for those same billions of years. The sun varies in intensity and emissions on a cyclical schedule. Any ham radio operator knows the sunspots cycle every 11 years and it is that which affects the ozone layer. 1. The emissions from volcanos include some carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, but they also include smoke and ash, which produce an offsetting cooling effect; in fact, if anything, they have tended to cool rather than warm the environment. 2. Sunspots do vary in intensity; however, it is the release of chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) into the atmosphere that has caused degradation of the ozone layer. We have made some laudable strides in reducing such emissions, and these are credited with slowing and partially reversing the damage. But what needs to be understood, and often isn't, is that the earth does indeed maintain a certain natural equilibrium--but that equilibrium can be and is being disrupted by human activities, no matter how much some of us would like to deny it. My point is that we are so insignificant in the whole picture that we can not possibly get a statistical baseline on these things. Yes, it's warmer by 1 degree but that's only records going back a second in the time of the earth. We are taking a very limited and narrow set of statistics and projecting them to a long term catastrophic end without knowing all of the influences on the situation such as the "accepted fact" that the earth has been decimated several times by ice ages, the influence of a diety, the self-healing ability of the planet and other bigger-than-us factors.1. There are over six and a half billion human beings on this planet, and that figure increases daily. Our industry overspreads the globe even as our roads span its surface, our shipping fills the oceans, and our flights saturate the very skies. And each and every one of our billions of vehicles (note that cars now outnumber people to drive them in the United States) spews tons of greenhouse gases each and every year. That effect is immense and increasing with constant, exponential acceleration. So please do not underestimate human capacity to harm or help our delicately balanced ecosystem. 2. "Warmer by one degree" doesn't sound like anything to worry about--unless you consider the effects produced by one degree of added global warmth occurring over what you accurately note is but a second on the clock of the earth's evolution. The National Resources Defense Council and other environmental-defense organizations have thoroughly documented some of those effects, and it is not illogical to extrapolate from the data available--much as physicists have extrapolated the age and probable origins of the universe from data available to them--continued and accelerating changes to our biosphere. 3. Ice ages and other events are indeed inevitable on a geologic time-scale; that does not, however, absolve us of responsibility for our contributions to armageddon. 4. "The influence of a deity" is not a generally accepted fact but a matter of faith. And that faith can cut both ways: Even as "conservative" Christians in and around the current cabal in Washington would have us believe that "God will take care of everything, so why worry?", equally devout believers argue cogently that, since God has given us dominion over all the earth, the responsibility for its stewardship falls squarely on our shoulders. 5. As I hinted before, the self-healing equilibrium of our planet is not infinite; it is a delicate equilibrium, and that balance can be disrupted. It is easy to say that we are insignificant in the face of what you call "bigger than us factors," but that is a classic cop-out; imagine where we'd be today if we'd said that every time we took a step in societal evolution--and awareness of environmental consequences is just one of the evolutionary steps we are now envisioning. I simply can't get upset over things that may not need worrying about and that I can't do much about anyway. Sorry. Jim, that's exactly what a lot of our countrymen used to say about Adolf Hitler. I think we need to keep in mind that actions have consequences--and so does inaction. Quote
Boojum Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 Virtual Imager: Both Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean are interesting candidates. But I should mention that I am not actually a Democrat; I am a slightly disillusioned Green who is in the process of creating a political organization of my own: the Common Sense Alliance. And if all goes well, that may in turn lead to the creation of a political party (the Unity Party) dedicated to tackling the real, day-to-day problems of actual human beings. Quote
Boojum Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 Lianna: It seems the weather is no longer small talk. Quote
TCH-Thomas Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 Thanks for the effort, Thomas! But I think it's going to take a little more than that to get enough here I know, I just my little selfish share in this, since i dont want it. -Thomas Quote
Deverill Posted January 7, 2004 Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) Boojum, Three points and I'm done. 1. You said "We have made some laudable strides in reducing such emissions, and these are credited with slowing and partially reversing the damage." to which I have to ask "How do we know? How can we be sure it is that which is reversing the damage or some other influence we don't know about? Ozone is created by the sun, perhaps the recent solar insanity has restored it or perhaps it's something we don't know anything about like moose farts in Alaska." 2. You said that a belief in a diety is a matter of faith. My point exactly. To believe in something you can't prove is faith. We can not prove that there is no God fixing the planet so to believe that is faith. To believe that there is nothing else influencing the ozone than our efforts and damaging behaviour and that global warming is our doing and we can reverse it is also not provable because of the complexity of our ecosystem and impossibility of having a closed test environment. A common scientific axiom is that you can not prove a negative... therefore most science is, in a way, faith. Just because we can't see it, believe it or prove it does not in itself prove it is not true - whatever the "it" in question is. 3. I think I'm clear on your stand and I believe I have made mine clear. Points of view are for having, not arguing, so I will respectfully defer this topic to you and everyone else to do as they wish as I choose to no longer fill the forum with these way off-topic opinions of mine - even though it is in open discussion. Peace and love. :hug: Edited January 7, 2004 by TCH-Jim Quote
Boojum Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 Okay, Jim--all the peace and love you want ... as soon as I reply to your three points. How can we be sure it is that which is reversing the damage or some other influence we don't know about?While it is impossible to be absolutely certain about anything--a matter addressed under point 2 below--the fact that the ozone layer declined steadily while CFCs were being emitted without mitigation and began to recover only after those emissions were strictly curtailed is more than suggestive. Also, we are now coming to accept the Precautionary Principle, which proposes that where suspicion exists that human activities may be contributing to a problem--even absent proof positive of such causation--we are well advised to change the suspicious practices. A common scientific axiom is that you can not prove a negative... therefore most science is, in a way, faith. Just because we can't see it, believe it or prove it does not in itself prove it is not true - whatever the "it" in question is. This equation of science with religion and other faiths is a logically flawed mode of spin most often employed by creationists and other charlatans. Religion--belief in the intervention of a deity--is a matter of pure faith susceptible to no proof, disproof or experimental testing. Science, on the other hand, for all its flaws, represents humanity's best guess as to what really goes on in this universe. It is not a matter of faith, but of laborious development and objective (to the extent humanly possible) testing of hypotheses. Not perfect, but the best we have. The fact is, it is actually impossible to prove anything beyond doubt; there will always be those who question the proof, and it is clear that it is virtually impossible to change people's minds with any proof once they have decided to reject it. And that second sentence begs the question: Absent what you consider clear proof one way or another, why not apply the Precautionary Principle? Perhaps moose farts in Alaska really do have more to do with the state of the ozone layer or global climate than suspected. That does not change the fact that, until we know for certain, we would be well advised to do what we can to minimize our own contributions to the problem. After all, there is certainly no proof that what we do does not have a determining effect, is there? Points of view are for having, not arguing, so I will respectfully defer this topic to you and everyone else to do as they wish as I choose to no longer fill the forum with these way off-topic opinions of mine - even though it is in open discussion. I respectfully disagree. Points of view are hypotheses that we form to explain complex constellations of events. If those hypotheses cannot bear the weight of reasoned analysis, they must be refined or abandoned. That is the purpose of discussion and debate--such as this. As for the "off-topic" matter--you said it, Jim: This is the open discussion section, and the discussion in question is about anomalous weather, so I'd say this is very much on-topic. Oh, and one final note: Taking the stance that you aren't going to worry about a significant issue because our implication in it has not been absolutely proven is intellectually lazy and dishonest. If you disagree, perhaps you'd like to back it up by, for example, feeding a cow with sheep parts for several years, slaughtering it, and serving yourself a steak a day for a few months on the theory that we haven't proved a human contribution to mad cow disease either. Quote
TCH-Rob Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 Well, unless that steak has spinal or brain content you should be fine, now if it were ground beef or sausage where you never know what you're gonna get then that may be another story. And unless those sheep we were feeding to his cows were infected with scrapie there should be no issue. Quote
Boojum Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 Rob: Well, if we weren't off topic before, we certainly are now. Anyway, the latest concern seems to be that prions could in fact be found even in tissue that has not been in direct contact with brain or central nervous system components. The reason: Nerves extend throughout the body and there is some suspicion that they could convey prions to remote muscle tissue. And, unfortunately, scrapie is difficult to detect until it becomes symptomatic, so it would not be easy to rule out its presence in any feed containing sheep parts. This is why I think eventually all addition of animal components to livestock feed will have to end, and verifiably so, and all livestock used for food will have tro be tested and cleared prior to slaughter, before America and the world will regain confidence in our supply of beef. And this is part of why my family and I will be eating buffalo and ostrich in place of beef for a while. (Well, that and because, unlike beef, those meats are not marbled with fat.) Quote
TCH-Rob Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 Boojum, And that is the reason I will stick to humans. In fact, all of this cold weather is making me hungry. Where is my neighbor? I put weather in the post so it will be on topic. Quote
Boojum Posted January 8, 2004 Posted January 8, 2004 Post-prandial report: Nothing beats a good buffalo stroganoff on a cold winter's evening. Well, virtually nothing. Quote
Lianna Posted January 11, 2004 Author Posted January 11, 2004 59 degreesF and rising...... Still no snow to speak of and none in the forecastable future. (back on topic at least. ) Quote
TCH-Don Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 22 degrees and snowing! it's a heat wave Quote
Virtual Imager Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 Phoenix is back to normal.... 76 degrees right now. Nice for the runners (Rock & Roll Marathon going on today). Damn... I just bought new boots and tons of cashmere on sale! Our ten minute boot and cashmere season is over! guess I'll have to go to NY to visit my kids.... Hey Lianna... do you have any photos of those beautiful Missouri ice storms? I'd love to play with them and see what kind of images I can come up with.... Quote
Lianna Posted January 11, 2004 Author Posted January 11, 2004 VI, I'd have to look back into my pix from many years ago. I really don't pick up the camera as often as I should. Quote
TCH-Thomas Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 As posted in another thread, snow storm is coming here in stockholm and the temp I dont know. My thermometer (or what you call it) is broken (thank god) but people say its cold. -Thomas Quote
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