I May Finally Switch...

**DarqFlare** · November 30, 2004

Ok. I might actually switch from using IE as my primary browser to FireFox.

IE has problems every now and then, and the latest one I have is that its cache doesn't work correclty, so I can't view page sources sometimes.

Arrgh. Maybe an FF switch is in the works for me finally, I DO have it installed...

**TCH-Don** · December 1, 2004

I think I have used IE maybe 4 times in the last 6 months.

And each time I am reminded why I switched

**TCH-Bruce** · December 1, 2004

I mainly use IE to read this forum and another forum I frequent. I use Firefox for everything else.

**jnull** · December 1, 2004

I use IE, Netscape 7+ and Firefox, and do prefer to use them in that order. Firefox just didn't render all pages I develop as they were developed. IE and Netscape did.

**Rickasaurus** · December 1, 2004

I have to agree with Jim. After reading all the positive stuff you guys have written recently about Firefox, I installed it, but so far I don't like it. I also found it does not render all pages properly, and on one occasion while going through an online purchase, it would not accept a page in the transaction. Luckily, I was able to recover by firing up IE.

Perhaps it will grow on me in time....

Rick

**borfast** · December 1, 2004

With all due respect, Jim and Rick, if Firefox doesn't render the pages as you expected, I'm 99.9% sure it's your fault, not Firefox's :blink:

And I can say the same about the problem you had, Rick.

99.9% of the time I have problems with Firefox, it's simply because the guy who made the site that's giving me the problems simply did not know how to make the site correctly, following web standards. These sites usually use IE-specific coding or assume things are supposed to work as they work on IE when IE's behavior is actually faulty - but then you think that's the correct way for the site to work and code it that way and when it doesn't work on other browsers, you think it's their fault.

What I usually do is one of two things:

1 - If it's a site that I don't need to use/visit, I simply close the window and forget about it. Tough luck for the site owner, that's one visitor less he/she'll get.

2 - If I really need to use/visit the site, I either find an alternative or send an e-mail to the site owner explaining what he should change in his site and why.

Just my two cents.

**jnull** · December 1, 2004

Though in the cases I mentioned there is nothing wrong with the code, it is truly the browser, Firefox in this case.

One thing I've learned in working with the Internet and computers in general, is that errors do abound, only because these things are created by imperfect people. If people weren't imperfect, than everything we make would always be perfect, even browsers of preference.

Thanx for your two-cents, Raul, the dialogue is much appreciated.

**borfast** · December 1, 2004

Jim, can you point me to those sites? If there's nothing wrong with the code, perhaps I know of some trick to make them work properly with Firefox.

**jnull** · December 2, 2004

Raul, thank you for your offer.

But using "some trick" to make Firefox work is just what I'm trying to avoid. I attempt to code websites to satisfy the 90% of site visitors, thus IE and Netscape, today. If that changes then I would move in that same direction because of the need of my clients to be able to provide access to this factor of web surfers. If it takes a special fix to satisfy one of those browsers in the lower 10%, well... that's a road I just don't feel it's prudent to go down. I'm content to accept that I can't satisfy 100% of all browsers with coding, fixes, tricks or otherwise, and that coding to the 90% is the best solution for the site owners, and for the coder.

Thank you again for your offer, but it is one that is best for me to pass on. :rolleye Thumbs Up

**teyong** · December 2, 2004

I made the switch in Nov. Like it.

David

**Head Guru** · December 2, 2004

Robert,

If your browser cache is full, View Source can fail. To see if this is the case, select Internet Options from IE's Tools menu, click on the General tab, and click on the Delete files button in the Temporary Internet Files pane.

Good Luck!

Bill

**Deverill** · December 2, 2004

Raul, thank you for your offer. But using "some trick" to make Firefox work is just what I'm trying to avoid.

Agreed that kludges aren't good solutions, but... if you care to post a site that is properly formed and "breaks" on FireFox, Raul or even I could find out what's causing the problem and report it to Mozilla and get it fixed. It's always better to report errors than to use an unsecure browser. :lol:

**borfast** · December 2, 2004

Jim Sewell already said what I was going to say

And I'd also like to add that if you're targeting Netscape and you say your sites work fine with it, then they should work fine with Firefox, because they both use the same HTML engine.

Sometimes Netscape is a little behind Firefox, so you could even say that your sites aren't working on Firefox due to some bug introduced in a more recent version of Gecko (Netscape's and Firefox's HTML engine) used by Firefox, that doesn't affect Netscape. But that's even more risky, because Netscape is constantly releasing new versions of their browser, based on the newer versions of Gecko, meaning that sooner or later, your sites *will* break on Netscape (and look out, Netscape has just released a new beta version of their browser).

Anyway, as Jim said, if you do believe there is something wrong with Firefox's HTML engine and not your code, you could let us know what it is so we could report it to Mozilla and they can get it fixed

Edited December 2, 2004 by TCH-Raul

**DarqFlare** · December 2, 2004

Bill,

I've tried that before, and it works temporarily for me. Immediately after clearing the cache I am able to view sources, but not for long... And I've allowed IE a good amount of space for the cache.

As far as the sentiments expressed here... Through my travels I have noticed things here and there, but here's one thing I do know: Don't immediately assume that it's the browser's fault. You need to look at problems from every point of view. Check the coding to make sure it's valid, see what browsers it works in, etc.

Once I got FireFox, I was able to identify a few IE-specific problems I had in my site coding. I got them fixed, and now my websites display perfectly fine in both IE and FF on a PC.

Now here's the kicker. Macintosh machines have major problems allowing CSS to control the output of tables. Actually, they just have CSS problems at all, because I have a couple websites written where I simply use a {table} tag with no attributes, and the CSS defines its width, padding, spacing, etc. This works fine for PCs, but Macs still auto-display some padding and such. Also has problems with CSS' img{border: 0px;} attribute, still giving a linked image a border.

In any case, I've discovered that sometimes that the page really has the problem because it wasn't properly tested in multiple browsers when it was designed. IE-specific coding must be avoided at all costs these days if you want to reach the largest audience possible, because FF is making a major push. Hell, 7.6% of users that visit my main site use FF, so I have to make sure it works in FF.

Oh, by the way, here's a quirk I found about IE. If you have a table cell that only contains an image, and the cell is exactly the same size as the image with no padding, here's how the line needs to look:

{TD}{IMG}{/TD}

It cannot look like:

{TD}

{IMG}

{/TD}

The second option there, in IE (Not FF!), will put a few pixels of blank space underneath the image because IE is dumb and doesn't ignore the whitespace like it should.

Just food for thought.

**TCH-Don** · December 2, 2004

CSS has a problem with table cell spacing and padding.

It is recomended that you leave cell spacing and padding in the table,

I got this from my Eric Meyers book.

Edited December 2, 2004 by TCH-Don

**borfast** · December 3, 2004

You're both right, actually :dance:

That's a known problem in IE. The famous "whitespace bug", as Zeldman called it in his book, "designing with web standards" (which, by the way, I recommend to anyone who wants to make a web page, even if a simple personal one).

But what Don said is also true, there are some problems with using CSS to set table cells' spacing and padding.

Robert, about the Macs, what browser did you test that on? I ask because I'm sure it's not a problem with the OS itself but something wrong with the browser's CSS implementation.

**LisaJill** · December 3, 2004

It's not a general Mac problem. Or rather - I've never seen that problem with either Opera or Firefox. I'm not sure about Omniweb, Safari, or any of the others. =)

**surfdean** · December 3, 2004

I too use FF as my main browser, but keep IE for those *special* pages that *only* like IE. I developed my site mainly by looking at FF, and IE more as an afterthought, and they render *almost the same... it seems that with absolute text and image placement defs, they are about 10-20px off...

Bruce-

Why would you use IE specifically for this forum?

**DarqFlare** · December 3, 2004

All browsers on a Mac I've had that problem.

Example: h**p://www.darqness.net/chooser.php

Here is the coding example:

><table width="100%">
<form action="<? echo $_SERVER["PHP_SELF"]; ?>" method="post" name="Chooser" onSubmit="return choose(true);" target="_top">
<tr>
<td align="left" valign="middle" class="left"><a href="http://www.darqness.net/network.php" title="Darqness.Network" onMouseOver="window.status='Darqness.Network'; return(true);" onMouseOut="window.status=''; return(true);" target="_top"><img src="/images/chooser/title.gif" width="200" height="25" alt="Darqness.Network" /></a></td>
<td align="right" valign="middle" class="right">

...

And here's the CSS that works on everything but Macs:

>table
{
border: 0px;
border-collapse: collapse;
}

td
{
padding: 0px;

vertical-align: middle;

background: url("/images/chooser/background.gif") top left repeat-x;
}

td.left
{
padding-left: 10px;
}

**borfast** · December 3, 2004

Robert, you have some redundant code, there. You're using both the valign attribute for the <td> tag and you also use the vertical-align CSS property for td elements.

That could be part of the problem.

**erisande** · December 3, 2004

I'm amazed anyone is still using tables. I switched to DIVS a while back, and I can't imagine going back to tables again!

I am a Firefox user, and I have not noticed any pages having that much trouble (no fixes involved.)

When I design pages, I always test them in FF first, since (from experience) I have found that FF displays things using the correct CSS/HTML standards. Then I usually have to put in a small piece of code to fix IE's 3px Shift problem ( a simple cut/paste). The CSS DIV padding and margin definitions are confusing. It seems IE does one where FF does the other and the other way around. Firefox always displays my designs as planned. Of course I hand write my sites at this time so I am always aware of the code I write and try to keep it HTML 4.01 Strict.

I would also be interested to see what pages out there have trouble in FF. I have not seen any. Usually, sites that looks wrong in ANY browser was not properly designed. (Excepting IE's 3px Shift, which [iMHO] is their error.)

**TCH-Rob** · December 3, 2004

I'm amazed anyone is still using tables.

You must be amazed at almost every website you see then.

OK, it struck me as funny at least. Then again, I cant understand CSS in the least bit, I am not much of a page maker.

**LisaJill** · December 3, 2004

I'm always amazed when someone codes to CSS standards but doesn't use xHTML. *winks*

**TCH-Bruce** · December 3, 2004

Bruce-
Why would you use IE specifically for this forum?

I read this forum from three or four different machines. There seems to be a problem with FF remembering which posts I've already read between machines. Never happens with IE.

Plus the fact that I have to re-enter the passwords to all the forums each time I log in to the board which I never have to do with IE.

Of course I haven't tried with FF 1.0 so maybe that's all fixed. Last time I tried it was .8 or .9 and it would retain the info for me.

I use the View New Posts feature every time I come to the boards since I am a mod I read every post entered. I try to help where possible. It's just more efficient for me to use IE since I do this from work as well as at home.

**TCH-Thomas** · December 3, 2004

Plus the fact that I have to re-enter the passwords to all the forums each time I log in to the board which I never have to do with IE.

Ok, now I understand why I have to do that too. I´m using FF 1.0 so it is not fixed in that.

**LisaJill** · December 3, 2004

I don't have to do that and didn't on my pc when I was running .6. If you're having problems like that then you should check your cookies as that is how it remembers the passwords. There may be something awry with your profiles as well.

**bellringr** · December 3, 2004

Bruce and Thomas - I've not had to do that with any version of FF. Of course, there's only one password-protected forum I have access to, but it's never been a problem.

The issue I have with Firefox and these forums is that when I first open Firefox, I can click on View New Posts and be redirected fine. I can also click on the little icon to jump to my first unread post in a thread, but after a while (and there seems to be no trigger or specific amount of time), that stops. I no longer get redirected and have to click the link, and I can't go to the first unread post. It doesn't really make any sense.

I use FF for everything except when I need to see some specific javascript that is IE only. I have a couple of those on my site. They're nice, but they aren't crucial so it's no biggie if non-IEers can't see them.

**TCH-Bruce** · December 3, 2004

Bruce and Thomas - I've not had to do that with any version of FF. Of course, there's only one password-protected forum I have access to, but it's never been a problem.

Yeah, Bonnie (Bunni) doesn't have that problem either. Ive tried a fresh install of FF and it never resolved the issue.

The issue I have with Firefox and these forums is that when I first open Firefox, I can click on View New Posts and be redirected fine. I can also click on the little icon to jump to my first unread post in a thread, but after a while (and there seems to be no trigger or specific amount of time), that stops. I no longer get redirected and have to click the link, and I can't go to the first unread post. It doesn't really make any sense.

Well since I don't use FF to read the forum so I have never encountered that problem. But I think Bonnie has.

Edited December 3, 2004 by TCH-Bruce

**TCH-Thomas** · December 3, 2004

My computer is...cursed.

**DarqFlare** · December 4, 2004

Raul,

Yes, I just noticed the valign thing. But that isn't it, as I have another website using this came CSS styling that doesn't include the vertical-align in CSS, but has the same border problems.

There's very little of the XHTML standard that I don't code to. Forms are one thing I don't, because you're not supposed to code a form tag inside the table and tr tags, but I do it to avoid the default margins and padding that a form tag gives... Then again, I could easily work around this (CSS the form to 0px), but I have so many pages with forms defined this way that I don't feel like backtracking to fix it.

Can't think of anything else on the XHTML standard I don't code to, really...

**LisaJill** · December 4, 2004

Bruce,

I'm not sure what process you went through removing Firefox to re-install it; but if you did not get rid of *everything* including your profiles, cookies, etc - which it leaves in place with a normal windows uninstall - then it is not surprising that it wouldn't fix it.... =)

**TCH-Bruce** · December 5, 2004

Bruce,

I'm not sure what process you went through removing Firefox to re-install it; but if you did not get rid of *everything* including your profiles, cookies, etc - which it leaves in place with a normal windows uninstall - then it is not surprising that it wouldn't fix it.... =)

Oh, but I did Lisa. Removed my profile after uninstalling FF and started from scratch. On this machine and the one I use at work. No go. No problem. I can still use IE for this site and the other forum I frequent.

Maybe that's the problem. I read the forum from 3 different machines regularly and others if I am at my folks or wife's folks.

But it's not a problem.

**Deverill** · December 5, 2004

Bruce,

I read regularly from work and home. At work I usually use the "approved" IE browser and at home I have even deleted the shortcut to it so of course I use FF. I have not noticed any problem with View New Posts in either place under either circumstance.

The onlyproblem is if I have only a minute to come look up something I remember was mentioned in the forums and I don't read all the new ones, the system knows I was here and resets the "new" pointer. Remember, it's posts since last log in, whether you catch up on your reading or not. That's the only problem I have and the solution is to not come here unless I have time to read the new posts.

As far as I know nothing significant is customized on my stuff. Sorry you're having the problems but I'm not sure they can be described as FF problems.

**TCH-Bruce** · December 5, 2004

As far as I know nothing significant is customized on my stuff. Sorry you're having the problems but I'm not sure they can be described as FF problems.

Jim, they probably aren't FF problems. Just that IE doesn't log you out and the posts remain unread when I return.

I am not put off reading the forum with IE. I always have my FF open while reading and copy/paste links into it for viewing.

**DarqFlare** · December 7, 2004

Well, I've officially switched to FF. Installed all the extensions I want. Good stuff!

**borfast** · December 7, 2004

Thumbs Up

**TCH-Bruce** · December 7, 2004

Well, I've officially switched to FF. Installed all the extensions I want. Good stuff!

Now wasn't that easy? Thumbs Up

**erisande** · December 7, 2004

TCH-Lisa said somethign about xHTML with the use of CSS. I have not used xHTML to my knowledge. I am never sure what the differences are. It appears to me that the simple outcome is: xHTML is properly codes HTML.

As for tables used on sites, I understand their useage; I do use them to format information on my site, but not as the actual layout. I guess it is just the way you want to do things more than "the best" way. I have had very little trouble with my sites since implementing CCS layouts. Also, they are easier to build and maintain (IMHO) with PHP scripts. I can't understand how I built websites without PHP for so long!

**DarqFlare** · December 10, 2004

If anybody has any information about why FF would start crashing all of the time, let me know.

I'm having problems with both my desktop and laptop showing 0.8 and 1.0 being installed, when I only have 1.0 installed. I also have Flash & Shockwave installed for FF on both, but some things don't recognize that it's installed.

Not only that, but on my desktop, some of my extensions are screwed up and won't operate properly. When I uninstall them, they're "still there," like my tab preferences extension...

**youneverknow** · December 10, 2004

I can't wait to hear the answer to this one! Good thread!

youneverknow......

**erisande** · December 10, 2004

Mine did that. It was because I had files left over. I accidentally installed FF1 over FF.8

Uninstall any instance of FF and make sure the folder is gone from Program Files. Also, I suggest making a copy of your bookmarks and removing the Application Data folder of FF. Then reinstall.

That did it for me when I was having that problem.

**TCH-Bruce** · December 10, 2004

I'm having problems with both my desktop and laptop showing 0.8 and 1.0 being installed, when I only have 1.0 installed. I also have Flash & Shockwave installed for FF on both, but some things don't recognize that it's installed.

Not only that, but on my desktop, some of my extensions are screwed up and won't operate properly. When I uninstall them, they're "still there," like my tab preferences extension...

Robert,

I would go into control panel and uninstall version 1.0. Then I would uninstall version .8 (it's not really there but uninstalling will remove it from the list).

Next remove the folder you installed FF into. Then find your profile folder and remove that.

Now reinstall FF 1.0 and any extensions you had. Should solve the problem.

**borfast** · December 10, 2004

Just for the record, updating Firefox from version 0.8 to a more recent version without removing all the old files first is a certain way to get into trouble, so if you want to upgrade from Firefox 0.8, be sure to delete everything (including your profile directory) before installing the new version.

**LisaJill** · December 10, 2004

Yea, and because windows is so cool, it leaves all that crap in place when uninstalling, so you have to resort to manual labor. :lol:

**TCH-Bruce** · December 10, 2004

Yea, and because windows is so cool, it leaves all that crap in place when uninstalling, so you have to resort to manual labor.

And the reason you have to resort to manual labor is because the uninstaller knows nothing of files that are created after installation.

Most vendors include uninstallers for their products. They only remove what they put on your machine. If you create files with an application and wanted to keep them while still removing the program you created them with and I the developer removes them if you uninstall I think you would be rather pissed. Don't you think?

Just an opinion not an attack since I am a software developer.

**LisaJill** · December 10, 2004

*nods* I've seen several uninstallers that ask, during the uninstall process, if you want those files removed.

And the uninstaller should certainly be able to read the prefs and know where things are set to go. One of my major pet peeves about Windows is having to go clean up the leftovers when an uninstall should at least give you option to remove all associated files.

**TCH-Bruce** · December 10, 2004

Lisa, I agree with you that uninstallers should be more intuitive. In our uninstaller I could force the removal of the folder you installed into regardless if you created anything in there. In fact I do that with our demo version. And I remove any registry entries we create.

I agree, it's not perfect and there are ways to clean up while uninstalling but too many programmers have become sloppy or lazy. I am guilty at times too.

**LisaJill** · December 10, 2004

See - we agree after all. But yes, firefox doesn't have an option, so to properly uninstall ilt you need to find your profile stuff and delete away. =)

**TCH-Bruce** · December 10, 2004

See - we agree after all. But yes, firefox doesn't have an option, so to properly uninstall ilt you need to find your profile stuff and delete away. =)

I guess we do agree but don't just limit it to Windows. I'm sure the Firefox uninstaller for the Mac is the same.

**LisaJill** · December 10, 2004

There isn't an uninstaller. Most mac programs don't have one, you just drag the stuff to the trash. You have to clean up another folder as well but since there's no uninstaller - that's why. The programs I've run that had uninstallers cleaned that up for me if I got rid of 'em. =)

**DarqFlare** · December 12, 2004

I had to completely uninstall 1.0 (Profiles too) then "try" to uninstall 0.8. Reinstallation of 1.0 fixed the problem, and all I really lost were saved passwords and history. Bookmarks are good.

So all is well.

**borfast** · December 14, 2004

Glad you got it fixed, Robert Thumbs Up

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