youneverknow Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Here is an interesting article that got me thinking about the ease of use of a web browser. I myself use FireFox and think that it is much better than IE. Link http://kalsey.com/2004/09/why_i_dont_recommend_firefox/ Youneverknow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Interesting read, indeed. I don't agree with most of what he says, though but it's interesting nonetheless. That blue E they click on the desktop isn’t a browser, it’s “The Internet.”Fortunately for the world, Firefox isn't Windows and it sure isn't made by Microsoft - meaning the Mozilla foundation is not trying to solve the problem of people being lazy and/or stupid to the point of not wanting to learn how to use something. If what I entered isn’t a URL, pass it to Google. Firefox already does that. You’d be shocked how many people don’t understand what a URL is and what the address bar is for. When they need to go to a site, they close the browser, re-open it so they get the MSN or Yahoo home page, and enter the URL into the search box.I'm not shocked about this, I have two friends who used to do that - until they started to note a stricking resemblance between the stuff they were writing in the search box, and the stuff that appeared on that strange text box at the top of the browser window, after they clicked the search result link. IMHO, if people are stupid or don't have inteligence enough to use a computer, then they shouldn't even be allowed to use it, just like it happens with driving licenses. I know that if you put someone who doesn't know how to drive in the driver's seat, you're playing with human lives but giving a computer to someone who doesn't know how to use it is also dangerous - think viruses, for example. Why are they talking about engines here? I though this was something for my internet, not my car. Seriously, if someone doesn't know what a search engine is these days, then that person was probably born onthe 19th century I don't have time to read the comments but in the end, I kind of agree with the guy when he says an unfinished product may leave a bad impression on someone who tries it and that person may never come back. But then again, he's assuming that Firefox is going to be developed into a gigantic monolithic browser that does everything for the user, like Internet Explorer. I totaly disagree with that. Software shouldn't do everything for the user. It shouldn't be made so simple to the point that my grandmother can use it. The user has to do something, too. Especially learn how to read help files and look for information about what he wants to do, instead of simply calling his/her friend and ask them to solve the problem. I mean, for example, the address bar is a friggin' text box, TONS and TONS of programs use text boxes to get input from the user and don't have any button that has to be pressed to achieve that. It's what I call a standard behavior. Is it really that hard to grasp such a simple concept? Conclusion: firefox is a good browser for people, not for lazy people, or brainless people. By the way, I don't mean to offend anyone, so excuse my words if you feel they are aggressive but that's just what I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 If what I entered isn’t a URL, pass it to Google. Firefox already does that. My firefox 0.9.3 doesnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJ Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Conclusion: firefox is a good browser for people, not for lazy people, or brainless people. That's the problem with a lot of people designing software. They expect people to want to become a computer geek, when really the majority of people only want to use a computer when it makes their lives easier, not more difficult. Otherwise, why use one at all? I agree it's good that people should learn more about their computers, but they shouldn't have to in order to use one for basic purposes. Most people who drive a car know little more than you turn the key to start it, you put gas in it every so often, it has an accelerator, brake, turn signal and steering wheel. Most of the rest they take it in regularly for maintenance to let the experts fix it for them. Many can't even drive a stick shift because it's different and more complicated than an automatic. Should those people be banned from driving because automatics make it too easy for them? The point the author was basically trying to make is that IE (the automatic) already works for the user. Why would the average user switch to Firefox (the stickshift) when IE still is easier to use? If you want to market to those people, you should try to make it easier to use. And yes, the concept of hitting return on a field to make an action happen is hard for some people to understand who only use a computer once in a awhile to email family members, and browse a couple websites, but whose lives are otherwise not focused around computers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtis Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I'll start by saying I do use Firefox and I like it. It shouldn't be made so simple to the point that my grandmother can use it. The user has to do something, too.But the main point here is that most home pc users don't want to do any more than they have to. They want easy and simple. Seriously, if someone doesn't know what a search engine is these days, then that person was probably born onthe 19th century I deal with people daily that have no idea of whata search engine is. All they know is I can find things on Google or on Yahoo. And yes they will close out one and open a new browser window to go to the next. I spend alot of time cleaning up the mess people make on their computers. Most of the time it is because they don't understand what they are doing and they DO NOT want to learn how. Does that make them lazy. Yes. But I don't think I will gp so far as calling them stupid. In the last 6 months I have installed Firefox on probably 25 computers and explained to the users what it is and how to use it. Today,as far as I know, only 2 of those are still using Firefox. The rest went back to IE. Most will not even try Thunderbird. Reason given*I am not going to learn a new program that I may not like*. Bottom line is: Most home computer users only want to send email and surf the net.They are going to use whatever is easiest and fastest for them.What comes on their computer is what they learned and what they are going to stay with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmanmcp Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I have to agree with Mike and Curtis, ease of use is what drove Microsoft to the top of the heap. You write software for the majority, not the minority, and you become rich. The majority are the ones who want it now and don't want to take time to learn how to do it, click a button and be done with it. "whats a command line?", "you mean I have to type something and know what it means?"...FORGET IT. And "I" actually like it this way. Heck, if everyone knew how to do it I wouldn't have the good paying job. Or if it were too hard for everyone there would also be less of a need for my skills and I would probably have another job for less pay. So MS did alright by me, everyone uses it and lots of folks need me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtis Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Bob I know just what you mean. I have a customer that I go to her house every 2 weeks and run her computers anti-virus,ad-aware and spy-bot. If she can't click on the Outlook icon or the blue E she is lost.I know she has had a computer for over 3 years and doesn't want to learn more. She would rather pay me than learn to do it herself. As long as she can send mail and get on the internet she is happy,as long as she pays me I'm happy. So M$ has made both of us happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samrc Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 The folks I assist: 1) Don't want to learn more than emails and casual surfing, and the majority of those still can't put an ATTACHMENT on an email. And those still using AOL browser/email still have problems FINDING the attachment. 2) Are thrilled to learn about GOOGLE (You mean it can find all that so easily???) 3) Don't care HOW things work, just that they do. Don't care to learn terminology, what does that benefit them? They don't want to THINK when using a computer. They want to play. 4) Waited to get a computer until they did most of the work for you (these people would have been LOST with a dot prompt on DOS systems!) 5) Get glassy eyed if you try to explain something for more than 2 minutes. Teach ONE thing then go away. More than that is lost. 6) Want a computer with shortcuts on the desktop to the solitare or freecell game. 7) Would never consider opening the cabinet to look inside for fear of damaging the computer. 8) Are sure they don't need protection for viruses because they only open emails from friends and family. They know the source so it is safe. 9) Wouldn't know what a file extension is so telling them not to open .exe files means nothing. 10) Are average computer users. Some work on a pc at work and don't want to learn any other program... It's not laziness or stupidity, or brainless...it's LACK OF INTEREST. Totally different. Some of the most intelligent people I know can't run a copier (just press the green button dummy!) and barely can turn on a PC. IE fits the bill for the majority of the these internet users not because it is the BEST browser, but because it does not ask you to THINK about what you are doing. It is familiar and there is security in familiar. Those of us that build sites and/or use computers for a living in some other capacity expect to learn new programs, new ways of doing things, and are often eager to approach beta testing on a favorite program that has a new version. It's a different mindset. You can not measure the average folks I assist with people that find the technical side of computers interesting. There's a different set of expectations for the computer and the browser. I have come to accept that sometimes it is better to accept the difference than to try to bridge the gap. Little nudges are accepted (learning there is a right button on the mouse and it brings up neat menus) but not big changes like changing to a new browser (What's a browser? And why do I need a new one? Oh...you mean the box around my window? Why does the top of my window keep changing? etc)I say the best option for these folks is to tighten up IE so it is more secure and let them continue the way they always have. For the rest of us, give us other options that fit our needs/wants better. She would rather pay me than learn to do it herself Yup. Curtis you have that EXACTLY right! -Samantha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youneverknow Posted September 9, 2004 Author Share Posted September 9, 2004 I agree with most of you folks. Most people don't know what a firewall is or an anti-virus program. SP2 has "forced" the common user to auto update and includes a firewall turned on by default. The people I know would not know a firewall from an exe attachment. Firefox will NEVER gain more than a 4% share of the browser market IMHO. Bill Gates idea to keep it simple is reflected in the release of Windows Media Player 10. Tabs for ripping,burning and buying music are a click away. What is a WinAmp? most would say. I am just glad that there are developers out there for us real computer users to make programs that we can use and realize the short comings and lack of features of the Microsoft products. youneverknow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 (edited) My math skills sucks, but I did some counting... I went to secunias website (secunia.com) to see how many security things that are not patched according to their database, here´s the results...(once again, my math sucks, so I can have very wrong)... Mozilla 1.7.1: 2 of 5 are not patched (40%) Firefox 0.x: 2 of 11 are not patched (18%) Internet explorer 6: 18 of 58 are not patched (31%) I know this discussion is about firefox, but mozilla the most unpatched browser in this, comes from same idea (open source) as firefox if I am not mistaking. I also know that mozilla eventually will be replaced with firefox, but to continue Mike J´s car comparison...I as a average user will need alot of guts to change cars when I know they are built on same philisophy when I have the second most secure car. Just my .02 cents... You may kick me, but do it nicely. Edited September 9, 2004 by Jikrantz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJ Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 It's not the best logic to say that 2 of 5 things not patched is worse than 18 of 58 things not patched. You have to take into account that Mozilla only has 5 things *needing* patches in the first place (and all but 2 were patched based on your numbers), whereas IE has 58 (with 18 still outstanding). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 True, but if the percentage is correct, I think its pretty scary numbers in relation to the numbers of security holes etc found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 (edited) I may have spoken without thinking about what I was writin, my apologies for that. I don't want every computer user on the planet to become a power user but I do think they should at least be taught a few things, because they are using something that can have a negative impact on other people's business, education, life, etc. I also don't want programs to go back to the time when a command-line was pretty much what we had to interact with the computer. What I'd like to see is something in between. Things can be made easy to use but not stupidify the user ("stupidify" in the sense that the user doesn't know what he/she is doing AT ALL). After all, even if you're used to internet explorer and clicking the "Go" button on the side of the address bar, is it really that difficult to learn a new way to use the address bar: by simply pressing enter? It's even faster. I know simplicity is what made MS the dominant player in the home operating systems world (heck, I think I could even say they're the ones who started it). But I believe exagerated simplicity makes people "stupid", in the sense that if someday things don't look EXACTLY how they were used to, they'll be completely lost. If they knew that the "Safe Mode" thing that appears on their desktop simply means something went wrong and a reboot will probably "solve" the problem, or if they knew that when a window pops up saying "This program has performed an illegal operation and will now be shutdown" it doesn't mean someone hacked their computer and the police isn't going to arrest them for commiting a crime, if they knew they should have an anti-virus and firewall running at all times... they probably wouldn't waste their time, their friend's time when they ask them to fix the problem, and their money when they send their computer to be fixed. Do I care about that? In a way, yes, because I know people are not stupid and if they wanted to, instead of being lazy, they could understand just a little bit more about how that big box they have in front of them works. I'm not saying they should know how to configure Sendmail or Apache by hand, I'm saying they could know simple things like pressing the enter key after writing an URL in the address bar will have the same effect as pressing the "Go" button next to it. In the end, I also make money out of their "stupidity", so I shouldn't really care... but I do. Call me a dreamer or even say that I'm the "stupid" one but I think it would be much better if things were like this. Well, at least I probably wouldn't receive so many viruses and spam on my e-mail... Edited September 9, 2004 by TCH-Raul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Oh, about the number of bugs in IE and Firefox, Thomas, IMHO, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. I prefer to use something that only has 2 open holes than something that has 18 open holes. Besides, you have to take into account Microsoft's history of slow patches for their products. They take months to patch some security holes. Some of the ones that are still unpatched have been known for ages and they still haven't fixed them. By the way, what are those vulnerabilities you mentioned in Firefox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Sorry, Im to tired to type so I give the link, http://secunia.com/product/3256/#advisories -The guy who is off to sleep soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 (edited) Never mind, I found the link you were referring to. I never understood that "User Interface Spoofing Vulnerability" thing. In my Firefox, what it does is add a window that looks like Firefox inside my main Firefox window. Oh, by the way, also note the "Critical" indicator for all the bugs in Firefox and compare those to the ones of IE Edited September 9, 2004 by TCH-Raul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Dick Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 (edited) Ok its my turn I just wanted to add that FireFox has a GO button. This is one of those subjects that fall under users not wanting to learn more than it takes, but it wouldn't hurt them to turn it on by default. I really enjoy using FireFox but until someone like AOL, Earthlink, or Yahoo starts providing it to their users I don't see alot of average users making the switch. Edited September 10, 2004 by TCH-Dick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deverill Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Ah, analogies, I love them! Using the car analogy, friends letting friends use IE "dumbly" is like letting everyone drive a Pinto. I know it could blow up if they get rear-ended but hey, it gets great gas mileage and it's easy to drive. It's also like people who don't know what oil is. I got a great car that way once, but it's not the best way to live - blowing up engines because you don't care enough to know that a car has basic needs and the driver needs to monitor them. (Like we need to monitor security updates at www.myantivirus.whatever. ) Oh yeah, let's not bother with that pesky thing on the steering column - it just makes that flashy light blink that annoys me. (What? Use a program that's not IE or Outlook? Nah, why bother - I don't signal when I turn so why should I know about ZIP!) The car that does everything, including turning on the windshield wipers when it rains, setting off the alarm when you rock it and opening your door when you whistle at it? How long before someone figures out that if you whistle at the same time you pour water on it and jump on the bumper it will turn off the alarm and open the door? I see IE in much the same manner - a browser should be a browser and it shouldn't do me favors. The best example of MS programs doing this is a recent security hole in which an exe file sent with a music file extension and passed to Windows Media Player would be seen as an exe and WMP would say "Hey, this isn't music. I'll do you a favor and run the exe!" unleashing Pandora's box contents upon your computer. The truth is that folks know that airbags are because they were forced to. The commercials bragged about them being cool things. Their friends got chemical burns from one that was in their car when they wrecked. The babies tragically lost their lives when they were hit by them. The insurance company says "you can save money if you have these new fangled things". Maybe we as a computing industry need to start doing the same thing with programs and other things the consumers don't want to know but should? (No, not kill babies with them, but give them reasons to want to know about them.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youneverknow Posted September 10, 2004 Author Share Posted September 10, 2004 So if a dumb computer user is allowed to navigate the web and crashes into a tree we should take away their right to drive that computer? Their crash causes spam to infitrate the web by zombie programs they don't even know are running. Maybe we should look at the makers of the highway and blame them for allowing exe files to run without first checking theweather conditions and know that it is safe to travel.. youneveknow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Rob Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 See, this is why I use a text based browser. Sure the web isnt as pretty to me but the cheese is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtis Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Rob,sometime I think you watched Chiana on Farscape one time too many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youneverknow Posted September 10, 2004 Author Share Posted September 10, 2004 Rob...what is an example of a text based browser??? I have never heard of that... does that mean your browser does not render pictures and flash, java .shockwave. and all those other add ons that we get when we use the modern day browsers....(this is what I want) I want to click on a video and Instanly have it on my screen. Make it simple and the masses will come. youneverknow PS: I love Tillamook White Chedder form Oregon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaJill Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Lynx. Ah,the good ole days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Rob Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Rob,sometime I think you watched Chiana on Farscape one time too many. No too many Farscapes. Can never be too many. I dont really use a text based browser but the cheese is still good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 You guys should try some Portuguese cheese. Everybody (at least here in Europe) talks about French cheese and yes, they do have some great cheese but personally, I prefer some of our (portuguese) cheese, like the cheese from Serra da Estrela ("mountain of the star", or "star mountain" - don't ask, I have no idea why it's called like that ). Anyway, back into subject, I totally agree with Jim. He explained what I think in a much clearer way than I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deverill Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 So if a dumb computer user is allowed to navigate the web and crashes into a tree we should take away their right to drive that computer? Of course not, and you're absolutely right that we should do everything possible to make the roads safe... but that "dumb" kid down the street that doesn't know how to drive is not in his father's pickup - he has one of those "Big Wheel" toy cars. Maybe we need to make a Fisher Price web browser until they get big enough for the real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Maybe we need to make a Fisher Price web browser until they get big enough for the real thing. There is one, not fisher price but still: http://www.kidsdomain.com/down/pc/atkidsbrowser.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deverill Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 See, there ya go! No 50 mph tree crashing with that browser! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 lol @ Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 (edited) Humm... I don't know, it looks suspicious Requires:Windows 95/98, Internet Explorer 3.02 or better, Pentium 100Mhz, 16 MB Ram, 10 MB of hard disk space Me thinks that means it works with IE's engine, so it won't be any safer than IE itself, I guess Edited September 10, 2004 by TCH-Raul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Damn, I was gonna replace I.E with that one tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!blue Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 The only thing I can add to this great and eye-opening discussion is that we should teach the next generation how to care for computers at school just like teens have to take driver's ed in high school. Mandatory! There are many schools that teach kids how to use computers, but do they teach them how to care for computers. My driver's ed class taught us how to change a tire, those little circuit thingies underneath the steering area, checking oil, basics and other such things. (Of course, I didn't get my license til I was, what, 26? So what does that say about me? But I do know how to change a tire! ) later, !!blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 teens have to take driver's ed in high school Our teens dont even get that chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!blue Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Our teens dont even get that chance. why not? makes me sad here I thought all schools did that. guess I was wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Im in Sweden, blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!blue Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Oh, *blushes* sorry I assumed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvind Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/archives/006430.html The Head Firefox guy's word on the Geek Factor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 (edited) This is more of a security question, but I have been thinking... If a user stops using I.E for another browser (doesnt matter which one). He still uses windows (any version) and still have I.E installed. How much less security vulnerabilities will he have (estimated of course)? Edited September 11, 2004 by Jikrantz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
designby Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 This thread interetsts me as I just started using Firefox 0.9.2 in the last 3 months. I've always hated IE mostly for it being 'high maintenance' and S L O W. Firefox is lightening fast enough for an A-Type like myself, I love the Bookmark Toolbar and the tabs. This has saved me tremendous time when I have to make purchases from my wholesalers throughout the day. I test my web pages in 4 different browsers, and therefore do get to spend some time working with each. I do not find this browser unintuitive at all. I love with the car analogy. In my last life (IT Geek), I'd tell users that they have to KNOW to change the oil and check the air in the tires, but that doesn't mean that they have to rebuild their I AM A SPAMMER or customize their engine block (I used to hang with a lot of street racers - long story - different life). I'm of the ilk that spoon feeding users is not helping them. (Give a man a fish...teach a man to fish...same idea). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Demeter, good analogies, the tire changing and oil check I also agree with your thoughts. By the way, check out the Mozilla website, Firefox 0.9.3 has been out for some time Thomas, If you don't use IE, I'd say you'll be close to elimintaing 95% of the threats. This is assuming you also get rid of IE's evil companion, Outlook Express. That's where all the viruses (worms) come from. If you stop using Outlook Express, you'll do yourself a favor probably even bigger than if you stop using IE. Of course the best move is to stop using both Unfortunately, since it is impossible to completely remove IE from Windows, I guess you'll always be at some risk. It's just a matter of some guys that have nothing better to do with their time to create a new virus that attacks some part of the IE "engine" that is used internally by Windows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Well, I never used O.E or O. Never have, never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Rob Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 So how do you upgrade it? DO I have to uninstall the entire thing first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Rob, are you talking about upgrading Firefox? If so, I don't think you have to uninstall it, just install over the previous version you have. I know that upgrading from 0.8 to 0.9 couldn't be done this way, because lots of things changed and the browser files could get messed up but I have been upgrading mine by installing over the previous one, since 0.9 came out, and it works just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Don Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Yes, me too, I just upgrade over the old one and no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Rob Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 I went ahead and did it with no ill effects. There are little things that bother me with this browser that will hopefully be fixed later. They are cosmetic like the fact that I cant scroll while typing in this text box and that if I click the back button it will not mark posts as read if I have seen them. I have to click out of this box to scroll and have to refresh to mark as read. Silly things but as often as I post it is kind of annoying. I have to use IE at my job and dont have those issues. Like I said, nothing to make someone rush out to change it but sometimes it is the little things that make it more enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Bruce Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 They are cosmetic like the fact that I cant scroll while typing in this text box and that if I click the back button it will not mark posts as read if I have seen them. I have to click out of this box to scroll and have to refresh to mark as read. The two reasons I use IE to read this forum. But that's about all I use IE for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deverill Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 I cant scroll while typing in this text box and that if I click the back button it will not mark posts as read if I have seen them. To be honest, I think that is the way it's supposed to be. If the focus is in the text box and you scroll (I'm assuming you mean with the mouse wheel) then it should scroll the text box, not the entire page. If you hit back you should go back to the cached version of the last page you hit, not refresh it which uses more bandwidth and isn't really a back feature. Poor Firefox - gets blamed for doing things the right way just because IE is broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Rob Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 it should scroll the text box, not the entire page IE will scroll the box first if there is anything to scroll, otherwise it scrolls the entire page. As for more bandwidth, if I am refreshing anyway I am consuming the same amount am I not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deverill Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Yes, but some of us are able to remember which thread we just read and go to the next one on the list even if they all still look unread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Bruce Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Yes, but some of us are able to remember which thread we just read and go to the next one on the list even if they all still look unread. Yeah, while that may be true, some of us are getting old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Rob Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 I agree with Bruce, besides if that is because IE is broken then break Forefox for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deverill Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Ah, you see, there's the best part. Firefox is extendable - IE's not. (Don't ask, I've never customized anything for it and never really wanted to so you'll have to go elsewhere for the 'how'.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Rob Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Yeah, I am using the spelling extension plus a few others so I know that there are extensions. I was hoping you could make an extension for me so I can have those features. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deverill Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 I just saw a reference to an article at www.usatoday.com/tech/news/computersecurity/2004-09-08-zombieinfect_x.htm and one line in it made me think of this thread: Beware of spyware. If you can, use the Mozilla Firefox browser. I thought it interesting USA Today would publish an article formally supporting Firefox over the de facto standard IE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 I am becoming half-convinced... 1) I know someone published a link to some time ago where we could compare firefox and I.E, does anyone remember/know that link? 2) If not using any extensions, is there anything I can not do in firefox that I can do in I.E? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 (edited) Thomas, try this: Opera Vs. IE Vs. Firefox - Browser Comparison This is also interesting: Why You Should Switch to Firefox, on Mozilla.org. You may also want to look at BrowseHappy. It's not about Firefox alone but about a better browsing experience. As for question 2, there are several things you won't be able to do with Firefox that you can do with IE, like infecting your computer with viruses, letting your browser execute programs for you just because it thinks you want it to, being swamped with pop-up windows... OK, seriously, the only thing I don't think you can do with Firefox that you can do with Mozilla is use ActiveX controls. But in the end, this isn't such a bad thing, since ActiveX controls are rarely used (very rarely, nowadays) and they pose one of the biggest security threats in IE. You should ask instead "what CAN I do with Firefox that IE doesn't even dream about?" Thomas, look at it this way: hundreds and hundreds of people are moving away from IE and chosing other browsers, better, safer, more recent, more feature rich than IE. Even here on TCH family forums there are several people that are not computer geeks, who changed to Firefox, gave up on IE and are quite happy with it. So ask yourself: is it a conspiracy or is it really true that Firefox is better than IE? Edited September 13, 2004 by TCH-Raul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 First of all, I dont think its a conspiracy, I just like to read up before I do some things. Long time ago I adored Netscape navigator. But for some reasons I started to use I.E (I was probably bought by M$ ). I got used to I.E, came to this place, people nagging "switch browser", I had a peek on firefox as well as opera. Didnt like any of them. Had more looks on firefox and now maybe I wanna switch. But that doesnt say I should not know what I eventually might miss by using firefox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Bruce Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Thomas, you won't be removing IE off of your computer and if you happen to hit a site that doesn't work in Firefox you still have the choice to launch IE to view it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 (edited) Of course, Thomas. I'm not saying you should switch without thinking (although I'm pretty sure you could do that and not regret it ). I just said the conspiracy thing as a joke, no offense meant. My suggestion is that you force yourself to use Firefox for a few days. Explore its funtionalities, browse the extension repositories and see what you can add to your new browser to make your experience even better. In the end, draw your own conclusions. If you're happy with it, great, make the switch. If not, keep using IE. Edit: And I forgot to mention what Bruce said. Since (unfortunately) you can't remove IE from your Windows instalation, you will always be able to use it to view those outdated IE-only web sites. Edited September 13, 2004 by TCH-Raul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 While speaking about all this...I have another question about a error message I got when I once tried to use thunderbird, I dont remember the error message right now, but can I pm you about some help with it when and if I get the error again, Raul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 (edited) I visited mozillas site to see if there was a swedish version of firefox. There was. I downloaded "full install" and installed it. Attached is a screen shot of what meets me when opening firefox. Two questions... 1) What does the squared message on bottom mean and why do I get it? 2) How come it is not in swedish when I installed the swedish version? To go back to the original issue about this thread... I do not think this is things a "newbie" or even a "normal" user wants to meet when they switch. EDIT: Maybe I should attach the screen shot too Edited September 13, 2004 by Jikrantz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCH-Thomas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Disregard my last post since I figured out Firefox needs to be uninstalled before reinstalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borfast Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 (edited) Sorry, I had to go out for a while but I'm glad you figured it out, Thomas About your problem with Thunderbird, yes, you can PM me or even contact me on AIM/Yahoo/MSN Messenger, if you'd like, and I'll try to help you out Edited September 13, 2004 by TCH-Raul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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